Fishing for Redfish in North Carolina
Ep. 170 All the Places & Ways You can Target Redfish in North Carolina
Sight casting
Floating Bulls
NC really does have it all
What Sets Redfish Apart
Jud: Michael, Jeff, thanks for coming over to do an episode. I feel like I always cancel for some reason. Today we’re going to talk about redfish in North Carolina. Everything is fair game from bull redfish to puppy drum to fly fishing to bait fishing to sight fishing, we’re just going to tell you and encompass all of NC’s fisheries for redfish in a podcast. It’d be cool to tell the story of our state’s redfish. It would probably be good to start with how we fell in love with redfish here in NC. What is it about them that gets you fired up?
Jeff: I grew up striper fishing and trout fishing which is where I got into the fly game but drew me to it was the sight fishing aspect, being able to see fish that get really shallow and eat baits really aggressively. That’s what really clicked for me. It’s just a fun fish to target.
Michael: I grew up trout fishing, fly fishing up in the mountains so you know, it was little tiny streams looking for fish rushing.
Jud: The hunt, the interaction before the bite happens.
Michael: Yeah, changing bugs and trying to key in on exactly what they’re feeding on them. So coming down here, sight fishing for redfish is the closest thing to that. IF one thing isn’t working, change it up. Sling bait or artificials.
Jeff: That’s so true. There are so many different ways to target them.
Jud: I think it’s crazy that different species of inshore fish can be so different. The redfish more so than any inshore fish, it is so much more about the presentation and where the bait intercepts the fish than what it is. That’s what’s so cool. IT takes that guessing out. YOu don;t have to worry about baits like you do with bass or speckled trout. There are other fish like that but its so reliant on you putting something in the correct place to get bit. It’s so intriguing. There is no guessing. It’s usually your fault if you didn’t get them to bite. If they are super pressured, or something, but a one on one shot, 99% of the time it is all about the presentation. IT is all on us. If it’s presented correctly they will eat. The pressure of it and the ability to get the reward. Tarpon, you can do it all right but they still might not bite. Same with bonefish and permit and what not. It’s like redfish beat you up, but they give you enough to not totally piss you off.
Jeff: They are definitely one of the most cooperative fish as far as that goes. If you place that bait, they will probably eat it.
Jud: And then when they don’t you’re like “screw it! I hate redfish!”
Jeff: Different bait! Different fly!
Jud: It’s a much of hard fast rules that can easily be broken. So what would you say is the selling point for someone to come to NC to redfish? What is the biggest draw to offer to an angler that might be out of state?
Michael: Sight Fishing opportunity year around. It will vary on the sizes but you’ve always got some kind of sight fishing for redfish.
Jeff: One of the unique parts of our southern NC region is our water clarity. This time of year in the winter months, we’ve got Caribbean water. A lot of other places, Florida, Louisiana, they don’t quite have the water clarity we have. That blueish green water.
Jud: The wintertime water. So many people text about a trip and they all say, “ I really want to book a trip for the spring or summer. When is the best time to catch a redfish on the fly rod?” And I always want to tell them right now! My biggest best days for redfish are usually in the wintertime in that clear water. The fish school up and we are learning they do that in a lot of places on the coast. You can fish redfish here in such different estuaries all within about 150 mile long coastline. The cape fear river fish are going to orient to stuff differently than the new river fish or the south topsail fish. There are similar nuances, but as far as from what we’re seeing, looking into the water, its a whole different experience all along the same coastline. And that has a lot to do with the river systems we’ve got and the closeness to the ocean and all that.
Sightfishing Redfish Scenarios
Jud: What are you most drawn to if you could play out the perfect sight fishing scenario? What would you call it?
Jeff: As far as fishing with clients go, the best opportunities are this time of year when we have bigger blobs of fish 100-500 fish in a school. It;s a a lot easier of a target to cast at that bigger group of fish. You can lead those fish and work your fly into the whole group. Personally, I like to target smaller pods of fish, singles and doubles, things like that usually happens in the summertime when they are really shallow and the water is dirtier, it’s a little more challenging which is why I personally enjoy it. But as far as a goal of catching redfish on the fly, the winter and spring months in the big schools is the best time to do it.
Jud: Yeah you can almost guarantee a fish on the fly if the person can throw it a decent way.
Michael: The one nuance to this time of year is your casting game has to be close to perfect. It’s all about distance. It doesn’t have to be pretty but you’ve got to be able to throw it.
Jud: Yaah you ain’t going to be catching them at 15 feet this time of year. You can make that happen in the summer, when fish are in that dirty water. But this time of year, you need that 50-60 ft. cast to seal the deal. IT’s pretty necessary. 70 if you can pull it off.
Jeff: Yeah, it’s just tough to get close to the fish this time of year, they are very temperamental and easily spooked. More lateral lines to feel you coming in.
Jud: they are so sensitive. You feel like you’re so quiet. They don’t think they get smarter, I just think they let more slide early on in the winter. You can get a way with a lot and mess up, but they just put 2 and 2 together. Some deductive reasoning in their little brains.
Michael: Water being clear and fishing them in less than 1-2 feet of water and presenting on where they’re at. IT’s a lot greater than during the summer when the water is dirty and there is shrimp and mullet everywhere. It’s just more going on. They don’t figure it out as quickly.
Jeff: I’ve been thinking a lot lately, about why schools of fish this time of year much more spooky than others? You find groups that are really hard to feed, and then you find ones that really chewing and snapping off. Why is this group of fish so much happier and so much more willing to eat? IT could be due to fishing pressure, but what other factors? Water temperature? Bait? Their metabolism is going and they’ve got feeding on their mind. Other places, they don’t have bait, their only mindset is to find protection and conserve energy. They are just sitting there. But when the water is a touch warmer and there is bait, they are mobile and moving and more happy to eat. They are cruising and that’s the happy school you’re looking for. It’s just interesting a couple hundred yards apart but two schools the same size act so different because of just a few factors.
Jud: That’s a really good point. There is more than just pressure that can affect them. Barometric and human and predator pressure too. It affects them quickly but if they have everything they need around, they will be more active and fired up. That’s something I never really thought about. It’s funny how you can see a school quickly shut down as you fish them. The first couple of shots they are fired up and then all of the sudden they slow down. IF you know where a school is, unless you’re in some rural areas, someone else probably knows where that school is. There are really nos secrets. Maybe for a little bit, but not for long. That’s a bummer about a poling skiff. You can’t hide in an area. That’s the cool thing though, just about when everyone is done with school redfish, Spring happens and they start to break up into small pods up on the banks eating those shrimp that are starting to show up. It all cycles through. I could live in late august for the whole year. Late spring early summer is good too. The middle of the summer is good but those times of transition are just the best. I tried really hard to remember the water temps. There were banks that we fished one week and got nothing, fished them the next week and there were hundreds on the bank. The change happens just in time when you’re ready for something new. Maybe not if you don’t fish everyday, but I think the change of season keeps things interesting and you have to learn.
Jud: Give us one piece of advice for people who want to DIY fish for redfish for NC? How would you coach them?
Jeff: Don’t! Go with one of us! No I’m kidding. Don’t get discouraged. There are 90% of the fish in 10% of the water. 99% of the fish are in 1% of the water. There is a ton of dead water, so it’s just sticking with it, covering tons of grounds nd figuring out where those fish are. Don’t just find one school and beat up on it. There are more than 1-2 there are 20, 30, 40! Keep bumping and grinding.
Michael: During college, we spent 3 weeks one winter just searching. Driving a creek, driving to the next one, wherever until you finally find one. As long as you don’t mess with them, they are going to be happy and stay there.
Jud: This time of year, you’ve gotta figure out why they are here and try to replicate it. There are millions of spots with no fish and a hundred that do.
Jeff: And you can try to figure it out but there is some chaos to it, so randomness.
Jud: Yeah and it’s crazy how they are creatures of habit They like the same stuff and why they choose this section of bank, I don’t know if they pattern as they grow up but there are spots and you know them, but poling down this bank I will always see one right here, and if I don’t he’s five feet off the bank.
Jeff: It’s almost like they are protecting something this time of year. They might get spooked off for a minute but they always come back to their little zone.
Jud: It’s like a trout in a river staying in one spot and trying to get the most food.
Bull Redfish and Ocean Dwelling Redfish
Jud: So we have kind of been discussing slot redfish, smaller redfish, but we have a really good fishery up and down the coast for bigger redfish, bull redfish and ocean dwelling redfish. Let’s work our way up the coast as far as zones in which that happens. Down here at Wrightsville Beach and Oak Island anywhere in that 1-15 mile range you can find black drum and redfish, but up in the Pamlico Sound you get those spawners, the big schools off the beach in the Outer Banks. What do y’all think about that?
Jeff: You’re trying to bring in the bull redfish in NC and what we think about it. I love targeting those big redfish in NC. It is super fun, Louisiana is really known for their sight fishery, but we have the opportunity as well. When those big bull redfish first push in from SC and FL and up into the Chesapeake. You can find those big fish in the spring, It’s my favorite time to sight fish those bull redfish in NC. Even in our region they start pushing into the inlets and estuaries. They can get shallow and I love targeting them in the summer and into the fall. Usually by winter they hang out by the continental shelf, you can jig them and bottom fish them. So really you can fish them all year around, but I particularly like the spring.
Jud: So true, in the spring they are hungry. Where do y’all think those big fish go in the winter? There is so much debate, are they going south? Are they going offshore? People are catching them, but where do you think the mass moves to?
Jeff: I have read that the big bio mass pushes off the continental shelf. That’s where they hang out in the winter. I have heard story that it’s not always the case, probably due to them following bait and water temperatures. But I think typically the science textbooks will tell you they winter off the continental shelf off our coastline.
Jud: Out there where the bait and big fish congregate. They can get eaten out there, but they can make a living.
Michael: They can stand on their own out there.
Jeff: Yeah I would say out there at that temperature break, getting into the upper 60s, low 70s.
Jud: I wonder why you don’t see more people bumping into the trolling? People will be grouper fishing and their screen lights up and they catch a bunch of bull redfish for a few minutes. But I guess they just wander around like a herd of cattle without a fence. That’s how someone explained it to me in Louisiana one time. They said just think about coves and pockets that will catch these fish and lead these fish; if you’ve got a lot of fish in the area, what’s the wind been doing? They follow the bait so where was it pushed? It’s fun to think in those big ways. A little daunting to try to wrap your head around that kind of stuff.
Jeff: What’s your favorite way to target these bull redfish and what time of year do you like?
Jud: I really like trying to sight fish them, but I don’t know. It’s all fun. I love to catch them vertically on recs too, but I think the sight fishing. Stay tuned, we are going to try to put out some videos and do some looking and there are a lot of zones down where we are, up north, in the ocean, on sandbar edges, that’s a big one. You get rich’s inlet, Topsail Inlet, New River Inlet. It’s scary to burn a pretty day to do something that doesn’t have a guarantee but for fish like this, you have to make yourself do that. If you get those right clients that liek the adventure. You’ve gotta sale it correctly. It could be epic, but there is also a good chance we won’t see anything.
Jeff: High-risk high-reward.
NC’s Redfish against other Redfish states (SC and VA)
Jud: How would you rank NC’s fishery for redfish compared to other fisheries? Honest opinion. NC Redfish ranked against all other redfish states?
Jeff: I haven;t fished that many! NC, SC, Louisiana, Florida?
Michael: I’ve fished the same, but as far as the number of days I put in. We did Georgetown, SC. It was awesome. South Carolina is Really beautiful, lot of diversity. Same as NC. The diversity is packed in a little bit more. Like in Georgetown we covered what we would see Cape Fear all the way to Topsail in one day in Georgetown, 20-25 minute boat ride pretty much. Florida is awesome. Lots of diversity, Caught them in the Keys, Indian River Lagoon, Naples, all over. It just depends on where your home is.
Jud: Let’s just talk about VA, NC and SC. How would you say the fish behave in the estuaries in those states? What would say the large differences are?
Jeff: I’ve never targeted the small redfish in Virginia. I’ve primarily spent my time targeting the bigger redfish. Looking in that open water and some shallow water as well. Cruising and looking for big schools floating near the service.
Jud: As far as the estuary overall goes, from a google earth perspective. What are the major differences between NC and VA?
Jeff: I think you’re kind of talking the smaller bays on the backside, it’s a decent amount of area, but it isn’t anything in comparison to what we have when you start thinking about the Pamlico Sound and the estuaries we have. Bigger habitat. Bigger environment for redfish, but there is opportunity up there. As far as what it looks like on the map, it’s a much small area but still plenty of area with a lot of similarities. The tide isn’t as big so you don’t have fish moving quite as much. But I just haven’t spent a ton of time up there so hard to speak to.
Jud: I think even a lot of that interior edge of th eChespeeke from the Maryland line down on the eastern shore and the inland side, there are lots of creeks and sand bottom clean water all year, really enticing. But the problem with these bigger estuaries, like in Louisiana, there is just so much diversity as far as shoreline and edges go which we don’t have in the Pamlico and Chesapeake. The one benefit to that is the fact that you can get to a lot of areas even if the water is bad. But the Chesapeake and Pamlico, you have to pick your poison. Jeff: It’s big water. You won’t find any poling skiffs or flats boats out there.
Jud: It’s won’t even happen, but the fishing is there, but I look at the Chesapeake and based off what I learned in Louisiana, and the Pamlico Sound and I’m like some of that stuff looks like the holy grail of epic sight fishing for slot reds.
Jeff: We gotta spend some time this summer looking for it.
Jud: Yeah I heard from people up there like “Yeah man, we’ll be trout fishing and then there will be schools of redfish all around us.” But then you also hear that you can’t sight fish for redfish up there, But you have to take that step. Go shallow and look. Don’t stay off the bank. Go look and realize you can sight fish there.
Jeff: They just want to catch flounder and Cobia.
Jud: They’ve got some sick options.
Jeff: Oh yeah, Black drum, sheepshead, redfish, everything. It’s the largest estuary in the world.
Jud: I was going to start to talk about the bay on the west coast of Australia that I really want to go to, but that’s a huge rabbit hole. So, bigger water is the biggest difference from VA to NC. You can make the water small but overall traveling around you’;ve got bigger water which isn't a bad thing. ITcan keep the herds thin, it can keep the pressure down. IT can make it to where you can hide. There is a lot of untapped stuff up there. NC and SC, especially the southern half, there is no hiding. You’re going to see other fishermen. It’ll happen up north but the big water and then need to make big large runs and the needs for a larger, there could be some pros and cons north of us. What about SC? SImilar to a small portion of our state but what do y’all think? What are the similarities?
Michael: Definitely smaller water, lot of creeks but you still have bays and stuff like Bull’s Bay, some bigger water but nothing like the Pamlico or even og that. But when you get near down Charleston but that feels more like Cape Fear. A lot of creeks and topography on the sides, versus big wide open bays and open water.
Jud: In between it’s really similar size wise to our southern coast. Bigger tides and a lot of water movement. I’ve grown to like it in a sense but I find myself jealous of non tidal estuaries that people get to fish, especially from the sight fishing thing. You gain the ability to sight fish all day.
Jeff: From a guide perspective, It’s more difficult and fun to guide because you’re constantly thinking about where to go based on the tides. It’s more dynamic. But in a less tidal area, the options are endless.
Jud: There have been days where I ruined a trip because I made the move at the wrong time.
Jeff: Yeah even just 15 minutes too late the fish have moved off the bank.
Jud: But when you hit it right, it’s awesome. You make a run and you idle up to the bank and it’s perfect. It doesn't always happen but when it does you get those little tingles down your back. Okay so SC has bigger tides and darker water, a lot more fresh water running into the marsh down there.
Jeff: One thing too is how vast their marsh system is in SC. We have that zone in between the intracoastal and the mainlands to the beach pretty close. It’s a tight confined marshland where as there it’s massive. It goes miles and miles and way further inland than what we have. I don’t know if it’s good or bad but I’m sure it can get overwhelming.
Michael: The tide change being as big as it is, also positions those fish a lot more than other places without that tide. When we went down and fished with Johnny they were only here for 20-30 minutes. Positioning and figuring out that tide game is a challenge.
Jeff: They have to be so much more mobile than our fish. With that eight foot tide. It’s crazy to think about an area that has 8 ft of water and will have no water in it. At one point it’s loaded with fish, and then it’s completely empty when it’s dry.
Jud: A four and half foot tide is enough for me. You can have those oh crap moments for sure. It happened to me in SC, in all those tight creeks when you don’t know them, all the sudden you watch your last three fish belly crawl away from you and you’re pushing your boat out. So it seems like North Carolina really has the best of both worlds. You’ve got that SC low country style of fishing in areas, but you also have that big open water estuary that you see in VA. We have the biggest redfish in the world. If you want to catch massive redfish, 60-70 pounders come here. The Chesapeake probably has a few more monsters, but we’ve got the big ones. We’re excited as a group of guides and anglers to really try to figure out the sight fishing here in NC. That’s something we are working towards if you’re interested and you don’t have a skiff. We’ve gotta keep some secrets.
Michael: Big bulls moving in in the spring and summer. Our summertime bulls are up on the beach, but we’ve got big schools of them up in the summer. Those fish that come down south show up here right off of the beach. King Mackerel fishing, different stuff like that. Coming back to what we have here in NC, we have spring, summer, fall time. They are here and you will bump into them or find them.
Jud: I hear bluefin guys catching them out there in the ocean. There are still some spots that are untapped. Push yourself and go find something new and different and protect it. Alright guys, that’s our NC redfish recap if you will. Sorry I got a little secretive there at the end. We’ll hopefully be doing some more podcasts discussing our own fishery because what we have here is so incredible. Thanks for checking out the Eastern current podcast. See you next week.